Game other than pigeons

[Gareth Tawton]

{This discussion developed under the Vic Central Highlands Working Gundogs Easter 04 Schedule topic. It has developed into a topic of its own, so I have split it out and moved it to the General forum - Cheers, Jason.}


Noel,

I note that game other than pidgeon and rabbit may be used. Will the club be delcaring in advance what that other game will be and in what stakes it will be used?

Gareth

PS personally I don't care but I am sure there are people out there that will

[Peter Betteridge]

Good point Gareth
it is enough of a problem to stop me coming down to compete at easter.I have 2 young inexperienced dogs that have never picked up a rabbit or any other type of game other than pigeons.Personnally I fail to see the rationale in introducing other game birds I dont wont too take the punt that my dogs will ignore new game birds and keep looking for a pigeon that doesn't exist. After all thats what I've trained them to do.
I am dissapointed that I will be unable to compete as I have many happy memorys of the easter trials(especially1996) and I consider it to be the best run and most enjoyable trial in the country.
I would like to commend Noel and his committee for the great job they did last year and I hope this year will be just as successful.

[Rick Johnston]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT RUNS THE JUDGES ARE GOING TO PUT ON EITHER,BUT AS LONG AS THE COMPLY WITH THE RULES I'M HAPPY.I'M SURE ALL THE GAME TYPES ALLOWED TO BE USED ARE IN THE RULE BOOK SO YOU CAN BE SURE IT WILL BE THOSE TYPES ONLY.IT ANOYS ME WHEN PEOPLE WHO CAN SPEND 100S OF HRS TRAINING FOR ALL SORTS OF RUNS BUT CAN'T GO OUT OF THERE WAY TO EXPOSE THERE DOG TO DIFFERENT GAME,ESPECIALLY ALL AGE DOGS.

[Alan Donovan]

I agree Peter

Here in South East Queensland there are no rabbits - it is even against the law to keep pet rabbits. It is enough of a problem to train the dogs to do the rabbit blinds, without introducing some other exotic into the picture. Keep it fair.

At the National Championship in Queensland in September would anyone (from interstate) be happy if we decided to use Northern Hairy Nosed Wombats and Brolgas?

Cheers - Alan

(Ok - I know they are not in the book!)

[Gareth Tawton]

Peter,

I am dumbfounded by your attitude. With all the issues related to the rule reviews of late I am sure you would have realised that the majority of people would like to follow rule number 1 in relation to simulating hunting conditions. What better way than to use the game that is in our rule book. We all begin training our dogs knowing full well the various types o game that may be used in trials.

Living in a metroploitan area it may be difficult to access all types of game. What better opportunity will you get than have it provided for at a trial? Why would you miss this chance to further your dogs training? Most clubs, if having game other than pigeon will often let you intruduce the new game to your dog before the trial.

In more 25 years of involvement with shooting over dogs I have never seen a dog that will not pick up fresh game. Even when they had never rerieved it before. I can only think of one dog in a trial that has refused to the point of elimination. Even then he carried the rabbit half way bakc and then spat it out. Sure some dogs have had to be encourage and may not have scored well in a trial but they still got thru. These same dogs are very very few in number and usually the game presented was in poor condition.

My dog has never picked up a pheasant. If one was on in a trial tomorrow I wouldn't even bother itrying to introduce one to him. I would have faith htat his natural instinct would take over and the scnet of game would be to much for him to ignore.

I hope all this will convince you to enter the Easter trial no matter what game. Give your young dogs the opportunity to retrieve different game. I am sure it will be of long term benefit to them and you.

Gareth

[Peter Betteridge]

Gareth
I'm not sure what rule 1 has to do with my dogs inexperience in handling any game other than pigeons.I am fully aware that it is part of the rules to use other game birds than pigeons however I simply stated that It doesn't work for me ( or obviously for Alan and alot of other people who just happen to live in large metropolotion area's
You stated that you have never seen a dog refuse to pick up fresh game even if it has'nt previously been introduced to that game before.let me share with you my experienes in the 1993 national.On the 4th run Joe law put on a long blind up a hill with a two bird caste as the dog returned ,you then had to resend your dog for the same blind but this time it was a rabbit. I sent a young 18 month Gabby up that hill for a second time.she ran over the rabbit and proceeded to hunt for a bird that didn't exist. prior to the run I had asked if my pup could even view a rabbit but my request was deemed unreasonable by the trial manager.I then brought my next dog up on the same run with exactly the same result. they both did exactly as I had trained them to do.
It staggers me that anyone would pick a trial situation to introduce new game to a young dog.I know i'm not prepared to drive 10 hours just for the opportunity of teaching my dog to blink.
Rick,I envy you your country lifestyle ,but as i live 8 kilometres from the harbour bridge in Australia's biggest city i don't have an abondance of hen pheasants at my disposal. It's hard enough to get a supply of pigeons let alone rabbits. In my 8 years of competeing in all age in NSW I have only had to pick up a rabbit once.I know i dont go to every trial but even Gareth would conceed that rabbits are a rareity and pheasants are a non event in NSW

[Rick Johnston]

PETER IF I WAS JUDGING A CHAMPIONSHIP THERES NOW WAY I'D LET ANYONE SEE ANY OF THE GAME EITHER.WHERE I LIVE IS IN A VERY DRY PART OF THE COUNTRY AND I HAVE TO TRAVEL WELL OVER A 100KM TO DO ANY DECENT WATER WORK.MAYBE THIS IS WHY I HATE CHANEL SWIMS AT TRIALS BUT I'M YET TO FIND A JUDGE WHO WILL LET ME HAVE A CRACK AT THE RUN BEFORE THE TRIAL BEGINS.YOU ONLY EVER NEED TO INTRDUCE A DOG TO NEW GAME ONCE IN ITS LIFE.WATER TRAINING AND OTHER TRAINING ARE A LIFE LONG PROCESS.ALL I CAN SUGGEST TO ANYONE IS SOME HOW GET A RABBIT,DUCK,OR EVEN A CHICKEN STICK IT IN THE FREZER AND FETCH IT OUT EVERY TIME YOU BRING HOME A NEW PUP.ALL IT TAKES IS A COUPLE OF MINUTES.I'VE HAD A 6 WEEK OLD PUP RETRIEVING A WOUNDED TEAL ,WELL IT WAS DRAGGING IT OF INTO THE SCRUB TO EAT IT BUT AT LEAST HE WAS INTO IT BOOTS AND ALL.

[Gareth Tawton]

Rick,

I'm with you. Every household in Australia has a freezer. So all anyone has to do is once in a blue moon get hold of a rabbit, duck or whatever and keep it in the freezer. they don't take up much space. The wife gets over it eventually and as you said they only need to be introduced to the ne game once.

Peter,

Given your national experiance, that both your dogs had the same fault. Is it possible this is a break down in your training? We have all seen young dogs that at various stages in their career switch their nose off and simply handle to stay out of trouble. This fault is quite common in young dogs new to AA. Maybe you are blaming the rabbit for a training fault.

If as you say you can't get the game in metroploitan areas. Why woudn't you drive 10hrs for 3 trials, the best retrieving weekend in the country and a chance to expose your dogs to new game? This same game WILL be used in other trials especialy nationals at sometime in your dogs career. Your response seems to be only to try and remove the problem not deal with it, when most handlers would rather deal with it and complete the dogs training. As a matter of interest if Hariy niosed wombats were in the Qld national and in the rules then fine by me. As long as its the same for everyone.

Gareth

[Alan Donovan]

Hi Gareth

You've said it all

"As long as its the same for everyone. "

So if the organisers of the trial intend to put on runs involving snipe, pheasants, or any imported game bird which happens to have established itself in the wild down their way - I expect that information to be made available to ALL the triallers. Otherwise those "in the know" have an advantage.

Game farms are illegal in Queensland - so no pheasants here. No season for snipe either.........

And if you are right that you have only seen retrieving "unusual" game as a problem once in your lifetime then it is obviously unnecessary to use them. And it could be seen to be seeking to gain advantage for locals.

Hairy nosed wombats currently not in our plan............

Cheers - Alan

[Kirsty Blair]

Hi All,

Hmmm, this has turned out to be a slightly firey topic. I remember having a slight freak out last year when I read "Game other than pigeons and rabbits may be used". A more reasonably-minded person than I sensibly stated that its a clause put in to cover the club only in the event that the typical game can't be supplied. In all honesty, for a $20 entry fee which club can afford to supply pheasants or similar for a retrieving trial? Last time I looked a shoot on a game reserve cost just a little more than that! And last time a saw a pheasant sold at the bird sales I buy my $2 pigeons from it went for $40! So before we get in a panic lets look at the practicality and likelihood of some obscure species popping up in the Easter Trial. Its almost zero.

The common possibilities are rabbit and duck - fresh specimens of which I picked up recently from the road in front of my house - 30km from Sydney CBD. The duck was still warm and completely unmarked. A couple of retrieves later, into the freezer they went, ready for "brush ups" any time in the future.

Perhaps Noel will clarify things for us

Kirsty

[Maureen Cooper]

Agree with Kirsty on this subject re road kills! I have a rabbit and duck in my freezer, both road kills, however all my dogs are exposed to rabbits as I have a pet one ( the puppy test rabbit!) after their initiation to Smudge as puppies they just hang over the balcony all their lives for a glimpse of him ( or his predecessor)! He is also used with the dogs on leads and they have to sit in the pen with him and me while he hops round them, teaching them not to chase. I then use the road kills as retrieves.

I remember running in a Championship in Queensland and quail were to be put on and Jay had never had one, a quail was handed round at vetting on the morning and she was given a sniff and hold and then proceeded to retrieve one perfectly when it was used as the second element of a double rise with the first being a pigeon.

When I think of the dead seagulls and other birds my dogs have brought to me on their morning walks I dont think there is any problem with them retrieving dead game of any description. Just pick up road kills folks!


Maureen

[Kerry Webster]

Hi Everyone,

As someone said, this has become a subject in itself, and, a little heated.

I can see this topic from both sides. My first retriever didn't experience a rabbit retrieve until she was in All Age, and then, refused to pick it up. Panic !!!! This stirred me to find some roadkill and do some solid training on rabbits with her. Now, she just loves "bunnies". Until recently, I also had a duck and some quail in the freezer alongside two bunnies and the pigeons. (I accidently switched off the freezer and discovered the very dead !!! very smelly corpses !!! some weeks later. The freezer hasn't recovered yet.) My youngsters are introduced early to bunnies and every now & then we have a little update.

Also, those that do FF on their dogs.......isn't the concept of FF one that the dog fetches any game it is sent to retrieve regardless of whether it has ever seen that game before or not ?? If that is so, then the FFetched dog should in theory, not have a problem retrieving game other than pigeons or rabbits.

I do believe that competitors should be informed of when a change from pigeons and rabbits is to occur at a trial, and, what game it will be. In fairness to all that are entered, this should be done well in advance of the trial, so that those that need to, can arrange to obtain the game and practise with their dog.

In W.A. we regularly have rabbits included in our trials, and in recent years, quail have also been used. Only twice, have I seen a duck in trials here, again a roadkill ???? (you all know we don't have duck hunting here), and the same duck was used for the blind each time. (this was the second last run and the numbers had declined by then).

The onus is obviously on the owner to introduce their dog to as much game as possible, if there is any doubt as to the retrieve of game. Asking a mate in the country to shoot a few rabbits can help, and even a duck in those states that hunt them, and then into the freezer with them. Just don't let them thaw out completely when you use them, and they will last for a long time.

Kerry

[Noel Eltringham]

I went to visit the trial site with three other members of the trial committee over the weekend.

Although there will have to be some logistical rearrangement with changes in property management the trial site looks in good shape.

I have noted queries regarding the use of different types of game allowed under the rule book at this trial. The club has as a matter of courtesy to all trialers wishing to enter, advised that game other than pigeons may be used at this trial.

By way of history at this event, ducks were used in one of the all age stakes at the 2002 event and last years rabbits were used in one of the all age stakes. It is only through the generosity of club members that a variety of game has been able to have been used at this event in past years.

The trial is being conducted during duck season in Victoria so one of our members may volunteer to provide birds for use in the trial. I can also inform you that there were a lot of rabbits observed on the site during our visit last weekend. I must say in very good condition as well.

I don't know what other advice I can provide on this issue at this time. It is really up to the judge and trial committee as to whether or not they wish to use other game that may be made available. It would be inappropriate to eliminate types of game or particular runs that are described in the rule book.

It would be highly unlikely for some game such as pheasants or partridge to be used unless some wealthy benefactor sought to make them available to the club.

The Easter Trial is a very large logistical exercise with assistance offered and sought from many quarters. As many pigeons are used at this trial as are used in four weekend trials. The CHWGC is not going to start to limit the offer of assistance (including game supplied) by a number of our enthusiastic members.

The club is continually striving to make the event as pleasurable for all competitors and their supporters. To this end the club has engaged outside caterers for the Saturday night dinner this year. Please remember to indicate if you wish to attend with your entry.


Noel Eltringham - President CHWGC

[Gareth Tawton]

Noel,

I congratulate the club on its handling of this issue. I for one hope we have rabbits ducks and pigeon. It sounds like you could on sell a couple after the runs Dinner maybe

See everyone at Easter.

Gareth

[Alan Donovan]

Hi Noel

Please accept my thanks also for the effort you and your club put in each year to make the Easter trial such a special event.

Naturally you cannot disseminate information you do not have re the types of game to be used at the trials.

I recall a few years ago at a National (in Qld - so I am free to comment!) I found out "on the day" that the shot supplied was to be blanks instead of the usual primers. This could have benefitted those in the know (nobody told me), and could have been to the disadvantage of those who had not been hunting - shooting over their dogs. There were murmurings of discontent that a stunt had been pulled. In fact it was done because a generous benefactor (Winchester) donated them. Personally I have never seen them before or since that event.

Certainly not against the Rules - but fair?? Only if people had been told in advance.

If a generous benefactor delivers your club a truckload of pheasants or snipe - hoping we see them at the dinner!

Naturally I have ducks and rabbits (and a hare) in the freezer..........

Cheers - Alan